177 | Heaven Working Backwards with Austin and Valerie DeArmond

Will we know our children when we get to Heaven?   Is my child an angel now that he or she has died?   Does my child send me signs?  Is it possible to "move forward" in our lives without fearing that we're leaving our children behind?   Is the best really yet to come? 

Austin and Valerie DeArmond enjoyed 366 days of blessing with their son Gabriel until the Lord took him to Heaven due to a sudden and unexpected illness.  Austin is a gifted and articulate theologian, and Valerie is his equal in wisdom and compassion.  In today's continuation of our conversation from last week, we discuss these questions and more.   Lean in and listen ... and I believe you'll find hope and encouragement in our discussion today. 

Click HERE to listen to Part One of my conversation with the DeArmonds.

Austin's blog is full of wonderful articles, including some that we discuss in today's episode.  Click HERE to check it out!

If you enjoy theologically-rich quotes related to grief and suffering, you'll love following Austin on Twitter/X.  Click HERE to link to his profile.  

** IMPORTANT** - All views expressed by guests on this podcast are theirs alone, and may not represent the Statement of Faith and Statement of Beliefs of the While We're Waiting ministry.

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Transcript

Jill
At the time that we're recording this episode, you guys are just about eight months into this journey, if I've done my math correctly. It's still so early on this walk. But if you can, especially since you've been there so recently, think back to those early days, those very early weeks after Gabe went to heaven. What advice might you give to someone who finds themselves there right now? Would you have anything that you would share with them that maybe was helpful for you?

Valerie
First off? Sorry.

Austin
Yes.

Valerie
I'm so sorry for your loss. And I would say it's okay to grieve. It's okay to take your time and not feel rushed through it or pressured by others, that you should be doing it this way or that way. It's okay to weep. It's okay to cry, it's okay to yell. It's part of the healing process. But I would encourage you to go to the Lord with that grief and go to God with everything that you're feeling and His Word. That has been, I said earlier, but the foundation for which we stand on reading the Psalms. The Psalms is a good place to just swim in right now, just reading those Psalms and praying them over your life. There's songs of lament for a reason. God knows that his children will endure hard times and suffering and pain, and so he even gives us prayers in the Scriptures to pray during those moments. And so I would say, weep, cry, lament. Go to God with that. And he draws near to the broken hearted and just begin to read through the Psalms.

Austin
Yeah, I mean, it is the worst pain you will ever feel. And especially at the beginning, there will be a resignation that living brings. You will have to resign yourself to moving forward. I remember at the beginning asking the Lord, Must we go on without him? And the Lord very clearly saying yes. And so you got to lean into that. Someone asked me a little under a month after Gabe passed and went to heaven, have you been able to compartmentalize your grief? And I said very emphatically no. And I wouldn't even want to. I said, we're leaning into our grief. So, I mean, don't deny it. Don't try to push it down. Don't simply grit your teeth and attempt to be a stoic and pretend like it doesn't hurt or it doesn't matter. But leaning into the grief is the only way to get through it, and it is just, again, the worst pain you'll ever feel. And then I echo what Valerie says. You got to flee to Christ and flee to the body of Christ. And we know it's difficult for people, a lot of different parents to return to church, and I completely understand it. There are days where I do not want to go to church on Sunday. There are days where serving is more difficult now. Everything is more difficult now. But we immediately returned, and the next day we went to church. The sermon had been changed to a sermon on Job, and it was obviously in response to Gabe passing. We were hugged. People held us up. People wept with us. Conventional wisdom says, back away from your ministry involvement, and we didn't do that. We continued to teach a small group. I teach a theology class. And it was so helpful to swim in those deep truths, to talk about providence and to talk about God's character and talk about God's inner life, the triune nature of God that helped. So, you know, flee to Christ and lean in on the body of Christ and don't run away from it. Only the Christian God has scars. Only the Christian God understands what it means to weep and understands what it means to feel tired and understands what it means to lament. I mean, Jesus is quoting the most famous lament when he's dying on the cross, you know, we very early on realized, where else can we go? He has the words of life and so and that's not to shame anyone who has a different experience, but we realized we got to go through it regardless. And so if we're going to go through it, we want to go through it with the Lord leading us and the Lord being near, and he has been. And so I would just encourage other bereaved parents, continue going to church, continue seeking the face of God. And if you haven't, he's willing, he's able, he's waiting.

Jill
Absolutely. Has this experience changed the way you teach your theology classes? Has it had an impact on that?

Austin
Oh, goodness, yeah. Losing a child obviously scares people. It scared us. It scares us now. And bereaved parents represent the greatest potential loss that a parent can endure. And so it's awkward. And a lot of people don't talk about Gabe because they're afraid of making us upset. But there was no way to teach those classes without talking about, you know, the chapter on Providence was goodness, why waste that? Now, there was a section in our book that we're using that talks about what happens to children. And so we had to have that hard discussion of where do our children go when they're really young and they die? The chapter on Satan and angels and demons and evil, how relevant. And so I've tried to use it as a teaching tool and use it as an example so often, and that has freed other people up. We're not the first people in our church to lose children. Right now, I'm thinking of three precious ladies in our church who lost children years ago. And us talking about Gabe allows them also to continue grieving and to process their grief, even many years later. And so it has affected the way I teach. For I understand, I understand it's awkward for people, and there are people that have been silent and that has hurt us at times, and it's understandable they're afraid that they're going to say something that makes us sad. But Nancy Guthrie very wisely said in one of her books, grief for bereaved parents is like the operating system of a computer if the computer's on, it's running. And so we're always sad. How could we not? So, you know, we've appreciated those courageous, loving people that have pushed through the awkwardness, I mean, taken a risk and talked about him. And so we're just grateful for that.

Jill
Yeah, I can't imagine that it wouldn't change the way you teach now, because everything is so impacted. That quote by Nancy Guthrie is perfect. Wow, I hadn't thought about that before. But I also think that this experience has probably given you a level of credibility with your students for you to be able to talk about theology in a way that's not just clinical or mechanical, but it's experiential. I mean, you've lived it. So I think there's great value in that. That's just another one of those gifts that God has brought through this terrible thing that happened. I believe that all of us that have lost a child have this very sharp dividing line in our lives. Kind of the before and the after. I know for us everything in our life is, oh, that was before Hannah, or that was after Hannah. And we as people, as human beings, change so much with the loss of a child. So talk about the before Valerie and Austin and the after Valerie and Austin.

Austin
I would definitely say maybe there was a lightheartedness before where now there's a sobriety to know. And so you're right, it does change you. You're not who you were before. Your life is not ever going to be like it was. You're forging a new path, a new normal. And so it has been difficult to enjoy a lot of the things that we used to enjoy. They seem frivolous now. And so it's like, why give my time to that? And so I think that we're even more intentional now with Addie. We're more aware of the suffering around us, whereas maybe before we overlooked it, it has taught us some humility at times. It's okay to say, I don't know, just because you think something's the will of God doesn't mean you fully understand it, or that it's easy. And we've learned that the hard way.

Valerie
I find myself weeping with those who weep very much more easily now, for sure, understanding their grief and their sorrow to a whole new level.

Jill
Yeah, I agree. What have you learned about God's character through your grief?

Valerie
Oh, goodness. So it's not only a head knowledge now, it's an experience of the character of God. I knew the truths, I knew who God was before, but I've experienced Him on a whole new level. I just think about every night how I used to sing to Gabriel, God Is So Good. And now not knowing that in just a few months he would go to see that very God I spoke of. But now I know that he is good, not because of the earthly good that we might think, but I know that he's good because even though my son is in heaven doesn't change his character because Gabe was a gift to start with. And so it was good of him to even let me enjoy Him for those twelve months. And so I see the Lord as being good, not because of the gifts which he gives us, but because of who he is and just how he is sovereign overall. And that I can rest in that. That I know that this happened for a reason, for a purpose, and that the Lord works all things for the good of those he loves and for his glory. And so now. Yes, I weep. Yes, I hate it, but I can say that. God, I know that you are doing something through this. What is it and how might I be a participant in it?

Austin
I've known grief and death before. I lost my father when I was real young, my grandparents, a mentor, had a heart attack in his office, had a friend in college, walked in the dorm room, had an epileptic seizure and never walked out. And a few others have passed away. But this death feels different. It is. Yet, you know, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. And so again, we are believers in the sovereignty of God. He ordained whatsoever comes to pass, as the Westminster Confession says. But the way you talk about sovereignty is different when you bury your only son. And so we've just man, it's like at the end of Job, where he's like, man, I spoke, but now I see, now I know. And he repents in the dust and ashes. And so I don't know that we've learned new things about God, but it's those old truths. They're like a diamond that now, as they're turned in the light of this, you see something different. And so that's just been so precious. We've been involved with GriefShare and that's been a wonderful blessing and we recommend it. But a lot of people talk about how this really upended and changed their view of God. And both of us have rejoiced that when we put our son in the casket, we didn't have to bury our vision of God, that our vision of God upheld us and sustained us in it. And so, I mean, goodness, deep waters require deep truths, but the deeper you go, there's treasures there for those who keep swimming. And so we're just so grateful for those axiomatic truths. Sovereignty of God, goodness of God, the truth of God, the love of God, the kindness of God. And so, again, it's not that we learn anything new, but we see it differently. There's a difference in knowing honey is sweet and then tasting it and knowing it's sweet. And I think that the death of our child has caused us to taste these truths a little differently than before.

Jill
The sovereignty of God was a great comfort for me when Hannah died. If I had thought that her getting cancer was just some random accident in the universe, that would have been a much harder pill for me to swallow than to know that her cancer came through the hand of God, that he allowed it, that was a huge comfort for me. And I know that's not a comfort for everyone. But, yeah, choosing to trust in the sovereignty of God and knowing that he knows what's best for us and for our children, to me, is a huge comfort and a great help. So, Austin, you write a blog that's very creatively titled Austin's Blog. Right. Easy to find … in which you write about a lot of grief related topics. I want to ask you about some of your articles specifically. I had read several of the articles that you had written before we met, and I went back through it just in preparing for this interview and just pulled out a few that I really thought would be helpful for other bereaved parents to hear some of your thoughts you write and you share with so much wisdom. And even me at 14 years out, I could glean all kinds of little nuggets out of some of the things that you have written. And so I wish we could go through every single article on your blog. Obviously, we can't do that unless you all have a whole bunch of time this afternoon. So we're just going to hit on a few of them. I've picked out a few, and Valerie, I would love to hear your comments on these as well. One of the most recent posts that you wrote, at least at the time that we're recording this, was titled Will I Know Him? And it addresses the question of whether or not we will recognize our loved ones and our children when we get to heaven. Talk about that.

Austin
You get a lot of questions about heaven, and one of the most frequently asked even before this is, will I know my loved ones in heaven? Yeah, and I get this question often, but you meet people who think that they won't recognize their grandfather who went to heaven, or their child who went to heaven, or their spouse who went to heaven. And it's such a strange thing because I don't think the scripture ever gives any sort of indication that we won't know people in heaven. And I work through that, and the first point I make is our resurrection will be like the resurrection of Christ. God's going to do to the whole world and to his people what he did to Jesus on the third day. And the disciples recognized Jesus after he was bodily raised from the dead. Paul says in Philippians 3 that our resurrection will be like his. He says chapter three of Philippians, verse 20 and 21, our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly bodies to be like his glorious body. So our resurrection will be like his glorious resurrection. And so there's continuity between the person you are now and the person you will be after God does his glorious work of recreation and resurrection. And so, I mean, that's the first point. If they recognize Jesus after he's been powerfully raised, they're going to recognize each other. I'm going to recognize people I know in heaven. I think about Matthew's gospel. They recognized Elijah and Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration, and they've been dead for thousands of years at that. And so, you know, that's the first point. There's continuity between who you are now and who you will be in the end, just like the disciples recognized Jesus. Secondly, probably the most important response is we don't become ignorant in Heaven. You don't become more ignorant in Heaven than you were on Earth. We will continue to grow in our knowledge, in our wisdom, in our insight. Heaven will be perfect, but it won't be perfectly static. We will continue to discover new and beautiful truths about each other and about God, and our knowledge will continue to increase. And so I don't think it's the case that when you get to Heaven, all knowledge is downloaded into your mind and you become omniscient. Only God is omniscient. I think that you continue growing, you continue maturing, you continue deepening in your wisdom and your knowledge, and it's because the object and source and grounds of your knowledge is the infinite God. It's like God is a mountain range, and you will climb joyfully and you will get to the top and you'll be so satisfied and you'll look, and there'll be an even greater peak right before you, and you'll go after that. And so we don't become less than human or less knowledgeable. We become more. But I titled it, Will I Know Him. Not just because of that question, but when you look at the Scriptures and what it says about resurrection, what God's going to do is going to be glorious. I mean, 1 John 3:2 says, beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as he is. I'm going to recognize my son, but he is going to be so radiant and so vibrant and so opulent and so noble and so excellent and so stunningly dazzling to my senses. And it will be because he's been in the presence of God.

Jill
That's right.

Austin
And as C. S. Lewis famously said, he will make the feeblest and filthy of us into a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine. And so I'm going to know Him and I'm going to recognize Him. I thought he was perfect and beautiful those 366 days, but we ain't seen nothing yet. He's going to be more beautiful than we can even think or imagine. And so I'm encouraged by that.

Jill
To me, it just fits the character of God as well. He created the family. He's the one who created the family unit and made relationships so important to us as humans. And I can't imagine why that would end in Heaven. So I look at it that way as well. Yeah, I love to think about that. That day that we get to see our children again. Wow, what a day. That's going to be glorious. Yes. So glorious. In your post titled Moving Forward Towards Heaven, you talk about something that we talk about all the time at our While We're Waiting retreats. And that's the concept of moving forward in our lives without feeling like we're leaving our children behind. We don't move on, but we move forward. We talk about that all the time. So you talk about it from your perspective.

Austin
Yeah, right. You feel like, goodness, if I move forward, I'm moving on, and I'm leaving them behind. To move forward is to somehow leave them behind in the dust. How can you leave the one you love so much behind? How can you bear to forge a new life without Him? How can I possibly live the rest of my days without my precious son? And so I was so encouraged very early on with the idea that our children don't just belong to our past, they belong to our future. If the gospel is true and the resurrection proves it, our children are ahead of us and not just behind. And so that was an encouragement again, going back to resurrection, going back to the new heavens and the new earth, that helped me understand that it's difficult and it's something definitely to work through and endure. But each step forward is not just leaving him behind at Jefferson Memorial Gardens. It's moving forward towards Him as he's in the presence of God. Tim Keller says, Christianity offers not merely a consolation, but a restoration, not just of the life we had, but of the life we always wanted but never achieved. And because the joy will be even greater for all that evil, this means that the final defeat of all those forces that would have destroyed the purpose of God in creation, namely to live with his people in glory and delight forever will be realized. So what that means if the resurrection is true, we're moving forward towards Gabriel, not away. We can't go back, can't change the past, we can't even stay here, even though we wished that he was with us. But we can move forward to the dawn of the resurrection where he'll be. And I think that's a comforting truth for parents. As difficult as it is, moving forward means moving not away from them, but moving toward them.

Jill
Yeah, exactly. I feel the same way. You also have a post that's titled False Comforts for the Bereaved and then another one that's titled He Hasn't Gained His Wings. And I think maybe you can kind of address all of those concepts together, share some of your thoughts on that.

Valerie
So early on, we decided to go to a bereaved parent support group in our community. And when we were there, they were sharing these ideas of their children becoming butterflies and visit them as birds and different things like that. And we left that meeting thinking, wow, praise God, we have hope that we know where our son is and that we can trust in Christ. And so we thought, man, that. Is some strange ideas, but we're so grateful that we can grieve with hope. And so yeah, that's kind of, I guess, where this idea of his blogs came from.

Austin
Yeah. And it may have been intensified because we live right outside the greater New Orleans area. There's a history of voodoo and animism and spiritism in this region of southeast Louisiana. But, I mean, goodness. We heard language of our children are sending us cardinals and our children are butterflies. We heard a lady say that, I raise butterflies, and it's like I'm raising my son again.  Our children are sending sunsets to us, and our children are sending the wind blowing upon our cheek. They're taking care of us. And I think that culture is present among bereaved parents, and it's very prevalent. We don't think that's helpful for various scriptural reasons. First of all, there's no indication that our children are given that ability in death. They didn't have that ability before, so why would they be given the ability to send cardinals and send sunsets? Those are the prerogatives of God and God alone. And secondly, more importantly, our children are in the presence of God where there's no more pain, no more sorrow, no more mourning. They're not even probably focused on us. They're focused on what they're experiencing with Jesus. And again, thirdly, they're not taking care of us. God and his providential care is overseeing and tending to his children. If we would sit and think about these false comforts, we would realize that a lot of it's arbitrary and a lot of it is problematic. If my son sends the breeze that so gently touches my cheek, is he sending those hurricanes that are so destructively working their way through the Atlantic coast right now? If my son is a butterfly that encourages me, what happens when the bird swoops up that butterfly in front of me?  This could actually lead to greater issues. I have consciously talked about this. We think about Gabriel when we see a beautiful sunset. We think about Gabriel when we see things of beauty in the earth. And it makes sense. I mean, our son is beautiful. Those things are beautiful. But the task and the call for the believer is to work your way up. Don't look inward. Don't look outward. Look upward and say, man, if that sunset is that beautiful, what does my child look like in the presence of God? And then that second article was about he hadn't gained his wings. You want to tell him about where he's buried?

Valerie
Yeah. So the cemetery he's buried in, there's a garden of angels where they buried the children. And we both were like, well, ask if we can get a different picture, because all of the gravestones have a picture of a little angel, a baby angel. And we were like, we don't want to say that we believe he's an angel because we don't believe that. And so we asked if we can get a bear because he's Brother Bear. And so he's the only grave headstone in that little graveyard that's not an angel. He's a little bear. And so that was just one way of us kind of being able to, I guess, share in a way that we don't believe he's an angel, but he's in heaven with the Lord and will be remembered as Brother Bear.

Austin
Yeah. And you hear it. I mean, people say heaven gained another angel. He gained his wings. He's our guardian angel. Our children are not angels. Angels are angels. That's a different class of created beings that God has designed. Our children are made in the image and likeness of God. They are human beings fully and finally forever. And that's a beautiful thing. I mean, a human being is the only creature in the scriptures described as being made in the image and likeness of God. That's what gives human beings objective value, worth, and dignity. I mean, an infant that will only live seven minutes outside of the safety of its mother's womb is worth more than the universe itself because they're made in the image and likeness of God. And so there's great dignity in affirming. What scripture affirms that our children are children? They're human beings. They're not angels. And Randy Alcron says this … it's the future fullness of our humanity, not a departure from humanity, that will mark the difference between what we are in heaven and what we are today on Earth. Remember, there were human beings before sin. We will be human beings after sin. Far better human beings, but never non human beings. We will have everything that makes a person a person. We will finally be all that God intended us to be when he made us, and we will not be less human. If anything, we will be more human. Gabe hasn't lost himself. He's gained more of his humanity, not less.

Jill
That's right.

Austin
And we think that's a glorious truth, a beautiful truth.

Jill
Yeah, well, and I think the danger when we start looking for signs, rainbows or butterflies or birds or anything like that is we're taking the focus off of where it needs to be, and that's the Lord. We can have full confidence in the Lord that our children are with Him and that they're okay, and we don't need those symbols or signs. I know that it's a tender thing for a lot of people because they really look for those, but I try to just kind of change it. And rather than look at a butterfly as a sign of Hannah coming to visit me, to me it's just a reminder of God's love. It's a beautiful creation of God that just reminds me of how much he loves us. That's how I try to look at those things. God can certainly give us reminders of things that are special. Maybe we love redbirds and cardinals, and God may send us one to remind him, to remind us of how much he loves us because he knows it brings us some comfort. But those things don't come from our children. So thank you for addressing that difficult topic. I appreciate that. Yeah. Around here at While We're Waiting, we use the phrase “The Best Is Yet to Come” a lot in memory of our dear friend, Joy Young. She just recently went to heaven, but she was known for always exclaiming “The best is yet to come!”. And you wrote a blog post with that title.  Talk about what that phrase has come to mean to you personally.

Austin
Right again, that scriptural truth, that for the believer, man, the best is yet to come. Heaven, the new heavens and the new earth are the endgame of reality. And especially for parents who've lost children, it's hard to feel joy again. And a lot of that is we have this idea that joy is found in things. It's found in people, places and things. But the reality is joy comes through those things from God. And so people, places, things, ideas, they're conduits for God's joy. But God has rigged it's almost like God has rigged reality that those joys don't last. On this side of eternity, the ice cream melts and you go to the zoo for the first time and it's astounding!  The second, third and 47th time it's not nearly as astounding as before. Yes, and I think that's just the nature of living in a broken world. And it's the way God has designed this world. The fleeting joys of this world are meant to provoke us and dissatisfy us in such a way that we look beyond it to the Creator, the Creator of those joys. And so when our joy waxes and wanes on this side of heaven, we're meant to look upward, not inward, not outward. Our best life is later. God loves us and has a wonderful plan for our lives.  Like that Billy Mays commercial, “Wait, there's more!” And so the scriptures talk about the resurrection, the new heavens and the new earth as just being where believers experience unending bliss for as long as eternity goes on. We so often focus on where our children are now, to be absent from the bodies, to be present with the Lord. Jesus told the thief, this day you'll be with me in paradise. And where they are right now is rightly called heaven. Theologians call it the intermediate state. But if you read the New Testament and you read the prophets, it's about the end. It's about when the new heavens and the new earth come about. It's about when there's a glorious wedding between where our children are now in heaven and where earth is. And God replenishes and resurrects and restores all things. And so N. T. Wright says heaven is great, but it's not the end of the world. The end of the world is the new heavens and the new earth. And that's the best that is yet to come when our bodies are raised gloriously in the end and reunited with our spirits that are in the presence of God right now, believers who have passed. And so the best is yet to come. I mean, goodness, we know love is meant to last and the resurrection guarantees it. And so that's what I meant when I said the best is yet to come. And it's not that he's being shortchanged now because he's in God's presence. No one's shortchanged. We're in God's presence. But according to the scriptures, there's more. The best is yet to come. There's a new heavens and a new earth, and that's a beautiful thing. That's a glorious thing. That's a hope sustaining reality that's coming.

Jill
Yeah, absolutely. Austin, you are a collector of quotes. Austin is a great follow on Twitter because every day you've got three or four or five fantastic quotes that are just perfect for bereaved parents. So I recommend … I'll put your X or Twitter information in the show notes so people can get connected with you. Because I love to follow you, because I love to read your quotes. So I'm going to put you on the spot. Can you pick out maybe three of your favorite grief related quotes to share with us? And Valerie, you may have some too. I don't know. I just always read Austin's.

Austin

Here’s the quote we learned from GriefShare from a guy named Dr. Brad Hamrick. He said, “Grief is the celebration of a good gift from God through tears.” And that has stuck with us. Just because we're weeping and we're sad that Gabe is in heaven doesn't mean it detracts from the fact that he was a gift and that we're just so grateful. And so grief is not a foe, necessarily when it's mixed with the idea of gratitude and realizing, man, if they're worth loving, they're worth grieving. And you're grieving so difficultly because you love them so much. And so grief is a celebration of a good gift from God through tears. So that'd be my first quote. The second one would be from a Puritan. The Puritans were fond of saying, “God allows what he hates to bring about what he loves.” And so death is an enemy. We ought not to make peace with it. It is the last enemy. According to 1 Corinthians 15, it is not natural. And anyone who's been in the room when someone has passed knows that it's not natural.

Jill
Right.

Austin
Gabe passing away was awful and not what God intended in the beginning, but God allows those things to bring about greater things. And it almost seems impossible to think, how could the death of my child bring about a greater good? And I'm not God. I'm not going to speculate, but it is true in the scriptures. God allows what he hates to bring about what he loves. And the greatest example of that, of course, the cross, the moment of the most heinous and most awful wickedness known to man and the greatest good coming out as result. That'd be my second quote. And then my third favorite quote is from C. S. Lewis. And this quote was one of the first things that was in my heart and mind after Gabe went to Heaven that night in the hospital. I mean, Job 1 was on my mind. We quoted that to each other. And then a passage from the Gospels. But a quote from C. S. Lewis in his book A Great Divorce, he says this, “They say of some temporal sufferings that no future bliss can make up for it not knowing that Heaven, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory”. And so the things that we're going through now, the things that other bereaved parents are going through now they're shaping you and they're molding you and they're even shaping and molding your experience of Heaven. And so that's just been such a beautiful thought to meditate on. Heaven's going to work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. I don't understand it. I can't fathom it. But God's the one with all power and all knowledge and all wisdom, and he can do it.

Jill
That's right. And it'll be amazing to watch it happen. We'll get to experience that.

Austin
Yes.

Jill
That's what's so awesome. All right, one more question I always like to ask as we close, has music been an important part of your grief journey and if so, what is on your playlist?

Valerie
Yes, it has been. I have a playlist on Spotify just about suffering, but hoping in Jesus. And then one song in particular that has been so helpful and so beautiful is Christ Our Hope in Life and Death. It's by the Gettys, I believe. And they have a lot of songs of lament. And I find that just being able to sing those songs of lament and songs of future Heaven and future new earth and new heavens just brings so much encouragement and hope. I'll read a little bit of the Christ Our Hope in Life and Death. What truth can calm the troubled soul? God is good, God is good, where is his grace and goodness known in our great redeemer's blood? Who holds our faith when fears arise? Who stands above the stormy trial? Who sends the waves that bring us nigh unto the shore the rock of Christ oh, sing hallelujah our hope springs eternal oh, sing hallelujah now and forever we confess Christ our hope in life and death. There's more greatness to it, but that's just a little bit of it I love.

Austin
I talked about this at the very beginning. There is just not good music for child loss. There's a lot of sappy, sentimental music that'll get you crying. But a lot of it is pretty vapid and pretty flimsy theologically. And I tried, I looked and people sent me stuff. They thought they're being helpful, and I listened to it. I was like, this is not good for me. But it's Christian music that focuses on resurrection and heaven and what God has been doing and suffering that has meant so much to us. The number one song has been Audrey Assad's I Shall Not Want, which is a reflection on Psalm 23. Shane and Shane’s Though You Slay Me … The live version with that Piper interlude.

Jill
Love it.

 Austin
And then there's another one that's called Christ is Mine Forevermore. This is what one of the verses says. It says minor tears in times of sorrow, darkness not yet understood. Though the valley I must travel where I see no earthly good but mine is peace that flows from heaven and the strength in times of need I know my pain will not be wasted. Christ completes his work in me and so we cheer up in church every time we sing these types of songs. But we're so grateful that those types of songs have been intentionally chosen in our worship service. And we're singing truth back to God. And we're hearing the voices of our brothers and sisters. The songs of lament and heaven and resurrection have been what sustained us so much.

Jill
I love that. Gradually, I think we're making a little bit of a turn towards recognizing lament as being a valuable part of a church service. I wish it would come a little bit faster, but I think we're going in that direction. It certainly was not there 14 years ago. When we came back to church after Hannah went to heaven, there was no Lament. And I'm so thankful that that is beginning to kind of take a little bit of a place on the stage now. Even books about Lament, those were not a thing back then. And I've been so appreciative of just the concept of Lament because it's such a biblical concept. And I think that's something that's really been missing in our churches. So I'm thankful to kind of see that coming. All right, is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up?

Austin
I have a quick poem and then Valerie has a scripture.

Jill
Sure.

Austin
Here’s goodness. We've been talking about Gabriel the whole time, and we just want to say we just dearly and deeply miss our sweet Gabriel Austin. But we're just so thankful to have been given the gift of those 366 days and God didn't have to create that child. And now that child is in the presence of Him and will enjoy him and glorify him for all eternity, and we'll get a role in that. And so we just want to say we dearly and deeply miss him. And so I want to share the poem that I had shared that morning in Bible study. It's from A. M. Overton and it’s called He Maketh No Mistake and so he says “My Father's way may twist and turn, my heart may throb and ache, but in my soul I'm glad I know he maketh no mistake.  My cherished plans may go astray, my hopes may fade away, but still I'll trust my Lord to lead for he doth know the way. Though night be dark and it may seem that day will never break I'll pin my faith, my all in him, he maketh no mistake.  There's so much now I cannot see, My eyesight's far too dim, but come what may I'll simply trust and leave it all to him.For by and by the mist will lift and plain it all he'll make, through all the way though dark to me he made not one mistake.  

Jill 

I love that.

Valerie
And I have written several scriptures that have really helped me during the seasons of grief. And one of them, I'll just read one of them. And it's a prayer that I've prayed and a prayer that I'd like to just pray over whoever listens. It’s Psalm 61:1-4.  Hear my cry, Oh God. Listen to my prayer. From the end of the earth, I call to you when my heart is faint. Lead me to the rock that is higher than I, for you have been my refuge and a strong tower against the enemy. Let me dwell in your tent forever. Let me take refuge under the shelter of your wings.

Austin
Amen.

Jill
Yeah. Amen. I can't think of any better way to end our conversation.

Austin
Us too.